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	<title>Comments on: TimesSelect</title>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Edelstein</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-99473</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Edelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-99473</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Arenâ€™t both intent on keeping the West Bank, Jerusalem, and postponing a final agreement indefinitely?&lt;/i&gt;

There is, at the very least, a difference in how &lt;i&gt;much&lt;/i&gt; of the West Bank each intends to keep - Sharon has pretty much given up on everything east of the wall, while Bibi still sems to think that it's possible to bantustanize the place.  Sharon's also much more of a realist than Bibi, and recognizes that he'll have to deal even if he doesn't want to.  The last Netanyahu premiership was a disastrous three years of wasted time that very possibly scuttled Oslo, and another round with him in office would be similarly bad for both Israelis and Palestinians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Arenâ€™t both intent on keeping the West Bank, Jerusalem, and postponing a final agreement indefinitely?</i></p>
<p>There is, at the very least, a difference in how <i>much</i> of the West Bank each intends to keep - Sharon has pretty much given up on everything east of the wall, while Bibi still sems to think that it&#8217;s possible to bantustanize the place.  Sharon&#8217;s also much more of a realist than Bibi, and recognizes that he&#8217;ll have to deal even if he doesn&#8217;t want to.  The last Netanyahu premiership was a disastrous three years of wasted time that very possibly scuttled Oslo, and another round with him in office would be similarly bad for both Israelis and Palestinians.</p>
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		<title>By: Atle MK</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-99391</link>
		<dc:creator>Atle MK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-99391</guid>
		<description>One of the main differences between Bibi and Arik is their economic policies. Bibi is a prophet for profit - an extreme market liberalist. While Sharon does support Israel's structural adjusment, he is not as gung ho. Before Bibi stepped down as minister he was pursuing the most neo-liberal policies Israel's ever had. Hence, what Bibi represent both the poltical and economic far-right of Israelis politics. Likud "just" used to be that political right-wing, kina corrupt party.

There is growing frustration in Israel about the lack of a social programme. E.g. while Israel is in many ways a 1st world economy, its spending on social welfare is on par with 3rd world countries, and poverty is increasing. Israel used to be the Levantine "Scandinavian" social democratic utopia (well, at lest social democrats in Scandinavia believed  it to be before the Palestinians were discovered), however this is now eroding and a lot of people are concerned about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the main differences between Bibi and Arik is their economic policies. Bibi is a prophet for profit - an extreme market liberalist. While Sharon does support Israel&#8217;s structural adjusment, he is not as gung ho. Before Bibi stepped down as minister he was pursuing the most neo-liberal policies Israel&#8217;s ever had. Hence, what Bibi represent both the poltical and economic far-right of Israelis politics. Likud &#8220;just&#8221; used to be that political right-wing, kina corrupt party.</p>
<p>There is growing frustration in Israel about the lack of a social programme. E.g. while Israel is in many ways a 1st world economy, its spending on social welfare is on par with 3rd world countries, and poverty is increasing. Israel used to be the Levantine &#8220;Scandinavian&#8221; social democratic utopia (well, at lest social democrats in Scandinavia believed  it to be before the Palestinians were discovered), however this is now eroding and a lot of people are concerned about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Issandr El Amrani</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-99227</link>
		<dc:creator>Issandr El Amrani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-99227</guid>
		<description>Thanks for everyone's feedback. Still haven't read the article, though, but that seems to make more sense. 

I haven't been following the Bibi vs. Arik debate lately, but aside from Gaza what are the main differences? Aren't both intent on keeping the West Bank, Jerusalem, and postponing a final agreement indefinitely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for everyone&#8217;s feedback. Still haven&#8217;t read the article, though, but that seems to make more sense. </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t been following the Bibi vs. Arik debate lately, but aside from Gaza what are the main differences? Aren&#8217;t both intent on keeping the West Bank, Jerusalem, and postponing a final agreement indefinitely?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Edelstein</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98945</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Edelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98945</guid>
		<description>I don't know if I'd call this an anti-Likud article, but I'd certainly call it an anti-Netanyahu article.  Friedman's thesis is that if Bibi wins the Likud Central Committee vote on Monday, Sharon will split off and form a new centrist party, and Bibi will then lead the nutty-right wing of the Likud into political suicide.  This would then lead to a centrist realignment in place of the current paralysis; thus, a temporary victory for Netanyahu on Monday would turn into a loss for him and a gain for Israel.  The article contains two implicit assumptions - that Sharon would rule as a centrist without the Likud rebels' baggage, and that his new party win a general election - but given the events of the past few months, both are at least plausible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;d call this an anti-Likud article, but I&#8217;d certainly call it an anti-Netanyahu article.  Friedman&#8217;s thesis is that if Bibi wins the Likud Central Committee vote on Monday, Sharon will split off and form a new centrist party, and Bibi will then lead the nutty-right wing of the Likud into political suicide.  This would then lead to a centrist realignment in place of the current paralysis; thus, a temporary victory for Netanyahu on Monday would turn into a loss for him and a gain for Israel.  The article contains two implicit assumptions - that Sharon would rule as a centrist without the Likud rebels&#8217; baggage, and that his new party win a general election - but given the events of the past few months, both are at least plausible.</p>
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		<title>By: praktike</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98908</link>
		<dc:creator>praktike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98908</guid>
		<description>I would call this an anti-Likud piece, JFTR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would call this an anti-Likud piece, JFTR.</p>
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		<title>By: Moss</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98769</link>
		<dc:creator>Moss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98769</guid>
		<description>&lt;abbr title="Dissatisfied with Friedman"&gt; 
Thom Friedman seems like a nice guy who is not very good a predicting the political currents; he thought the Bush administration would successfully create a liberal democracy in Iraq. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but the Bush administration doesn't even know what liberal democracy is. They never wanted to create it in Iraq, and if they had, I'm not sure it is possible. In this Friedman showed very poor political instincts. Unfortunately, he has a large following in the US. He appears regularly in the "elite" media. Too bad we don't have someone more savvy. Can anyone reccomend an antidote?&lt;/abbr&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><abbr title="Dissatisfied with Friedman"><br />
Thom Friedman seems like a nice guy who is not very good a predicting the political currents; he thought the Bush administration would successfully create a liberal democracy in Iraq. I don&#8217;t want to hurt anyone&#8217;s feelings, but the Bush administration doesn&#8217;t even know what liberal democracy is. They never wanted to create it in Iraq, and if they had, I&#8217;m not sure it is possible. In this Friedman showed very poor political instincts. Unfortunately, he has a large following in the US. He appears regularly in the &#8220;elite&#8221; media. Too bad we don&#8217;t have someone more savvy. Can anyone reccomend an antidote?</abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Nur al-Cubicle</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98767</link>
		<dc:creator>Nur al-Cubicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98767</guid>
		<description>Surprise! An under-the-radar op-ed calling for a Likud mass suicide!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surprise! An under-the-radar op-ed calling for a Likud mass suicide!</p>
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		<title>By: Cassady</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98664</link>
		<dc:creator>Cassady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98664</guid>
		<description>Knowing literally NOTHING about Israeli politics, but a little about politics, my uneducated guess is that the Sharon-Netanyahu plan is for Sharon to carry out everything on the agenda that is unpopular and then retire happy and rich hated by some, admired by others, and misunderstood by all leaving Netanyahu, ironically enough, with clean hands having publicly opposed all unpopular proposals even if he privately supported them.  

The best predictor of what a politician will do tomorrow is what he did yesterday, not what he said today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knowing literally NOTHING about Israeli politics, but a little about politics, my uneducated guess is that the Sharon-Netanyahu plan is for Sharon to carry out everything on the agenda that is unpopular and then retire happy and rich hated by some, admired by others, and misunderstood by all leaving Netanyahu, ironically enough, with clean hands having publicly opposed all unpopular proposals even if he privately supported them.  </p>
<p>The best predictor of what a politician will do tomorrow is what he did yesterday, not what he said today.</p>
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		<title>By: Cassady</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98663</link>
		<dc:creator>Cassady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98663</guid>
		<description>Well, Friedman's opinion is the opposite of what is implied in the headline.  Friedman would vote for Netanyahu because he opposes Netanyahu: 

Friedman: 

"Why, you ask? Because the Likud under Bibi, and without Ariel Sharon, will be free to be itself - to represent the lunatic right in Israel, become a fringe party and drive over a cliff."

This is not so much Friedman's strange sense of humor as his recognition that very strange things happen in politics.  Extremists takeover political parties even though the voters (who are often forced to choose between two extremists) are usually somewhere in the middle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Friedman&#8217;s opinion is the opposite of what is implied in the headline.  Friedman would vote for Netanyahu because he opposes Netanyahu: </p>
<p>Friedman: </p>
<p>&#8220;Why, you ask? Because the Likud under Bibi, and without Ariel Sharon, will be free to be itself - to represent the lunatic right in Israel, become a fringe party and drive over a cliff.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is not so much Friedman&#8217;s strange sense of humor as his recognition that very strange things happen in politics.  Extremists takeover political parties even though the voters (who are often forced to choose between two extremists) are usually somewhere in the middle.</p>
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		<title>By: Nur al-Cubicle</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98662</link>
		<dc:creator>Nur al-Cubicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98662</guid>
		<description>This too via NYT:

Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, said Thursday that he had been warning the Bush administration in recent days that Iraq was hurtling toward disintegration, a development that he said could drag the region into war.

"There is no dynamic now pulling the nation together," he said in a meeting with reporters at the Saudi Embassy here. "All the dynamics are pulling the country apart." He said he was so concerned that he was carrying this message "to everyone who will listen" in the Bush administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This too via NYT:</p>
<p>Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, said Thursday that he had been warning the Bush administration in recent days that Iraq was hurtling toward disintegration, a development that he said could drag the region into war.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no dynamic now pulling the nation together,&#8221; he said in a meeting with reporters at the Saudi Embassy here. &#8220;All the dynamics are pulling the country apart.&#8221; He said he was so concerned that he was carrying this message &#8220;to everyone who will listen&#8221; in the Bush administration.</p>
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		<title>By: Nur al-Cubicle</title>
		<link>http://arabist.net/archives/2005/09/23/timesselect/#comment-98661</link>
		<dc:creator>Nur al-Cubicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://arabist.net/?p=746#comment-98661</guid>
		<description>The Netanyahu Network charter members: Ledeen and Friedman.

I don't know if Sharon is tag-teaming with Netanyahu, feigning a leadership battle, or it it is for real.

btw: Did you see Landis' &lt;i&gt;Syria Comment&lt;/i&gt; today? He doesn't mince words:

&lt;i&gt;Iraq is exporting its sectarian war. In the crudest terms, America has lost its battle to create a constitutional Iraq, built on sectarian and ethnic deal-making and political agreement. What is going on now is that the US is empowering and arming ethnic militias - Kurds and Shiites - to overpower the Sunni population. That is what the battle at Tel Afar was all about. America is going to force Asad to hold down Sunnis in Syria, while America and its Iraqi allies rape Iraq's Sunnis across the border. This is going to upset Sunnis in Syria - and not just the extremist Sunnis.&lt;/i&gt;

Operation &lt;i&gt;Peace in Galilee all over again&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Netanyahu Network charter members: Ledeen and Friedman.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if Sharon is tag-teaming with Netanyahu, feigning a leadership battle, or it it is for real.</p>
<p>btw: Did you see Landis&#8217; <i>Syria Comment</i> today? He doesn&#8217;t mince words:</p>
<p><i>Iraq is exporting its sectarian war. In the crudest terms, America has lost its battle to create a constitutional Iraq, built on sectarian and ethnic deal-making and political agreement. What is going on now is that the US is empowering and arming ethnic militias - Kurds and Shiites - to overpower the Sunni population. That is what the battle at Tel Afar was all about. America is going to force Asad to hold down Sunnis in Syria, while America and its Iraqi allies rape Iraq&#8217;s Sunnis across the border. This is going to upset Sunnis in Syria - and not just the extremist Sunnis.</i></p>
<p>Operation <i>Peace in Galilee all over again</i>.</p>
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